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How to Be More Disciplined Through Playfulness | Ido Portal & Dr. Andrew Huberman

Huberman Lab Clips12:22Added Aug 31, 2026

Ido Portal and Dr. Andrew Huberman discuss the balance between play and discipline, explaining how playfulness prevents psychological rigidity and how to use...

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Contributed by 刘嘉琪

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  1. Play Versus Discipline

  2. 00:00play versus discipline. I think for some
  3. 00:03people it would be helpful
  4. 00:06to try and uh operationalize a bit of
  5. 00:10what we're going to go to today. And I
  6. 00:12know you're not a fan of like morning
  7. 00:14routine or this or that, but I can
  8. 00:16imagine walking toward a practice of any
  9. 00:18kind, a workout of any kind, making
  10. 00:21scrambled eggs
  11. 00:23as either I'm going to approach approach
  12. 00:25this from a with a sense of play,
  13. 00:28or I'm going to approach this with a
  14. 00:30sense of discipline. I'm going to try
  15. 00:32and find some friction, some edges that
  16. 00:35force me to rewire something. Now, play
  17. 00:38can help rewire. Discipline can help
  18. 00:40rewire. But of your waking hours, what
  19. 00:43percentage of time do you spend in kind
  20. 00:45of a playful explorative state? Like
  21. 00:48kind of keep it light and loose versus,
  22. 00:50you know, I know you're also a believer
  23. 00:51in like there's really value to putting
  24. 00:55up mental or physical or both corridors
  25. 00:57so that your system your whole system
  26. 01:01improves because at those friction
  27. 01:02points is where plasticity
  28. 01:05can be triggered. I think both of these
  29. 01:07things and also the relation to
  30. 01:10motivation
  31. 01:12in in both of them are
  32. 01:16required scaffoldings
  33. 01:19that we have to use at certain points in
  34. 01:21time but are not the essential
  35. 01:26will
  36. 01:27that connection to what we we don't know
  37. 01:33nothing about that we have researched
  38. 01:36that deeply in v various spheres but
  39. 01:40often we just replace pure will with
  40. 01:44discipline or with motivation but once I
  41. 01:47motivated myself I don't need will
  42. 01:50anymore and if I dis if I discipline
  43. 01:54myself into doing something I also
  44. 01:57hijack the opportunity
  45. 02:00playfulness it brings a direction and a
  46. 02:03flavor of something else a different way
  47. 02:06to interact with something
  48. 02:09how do we start to look at that what is
  49. 02:12the basic requirement I don't want to do
  50. 02:15this
  51. 02:17without this requirement I can't
  52. 02:20research will
  53. 02:22now if I hijack it if I take the process
  54. 02:26and I distort it I use discipline
  55. 02:29then again I'm out of the game or if I
  56. 02:33motivate myself. Same problem.
  57. 02:35Playfulness try to walk a different path
  58. 02:38a little bit.
  59. 02:41Maybe it's not it quite. It's not the
  60. 02:43will that search for a will that you
  61. 02:47know many authors and and practitioners
  62. 02:49have looked for because it's so elusive.
  63. 02:52But it's definitely something to
  64. 02:54cultivate and we've talked about it the
  65. 02:56last time we met

  66. Cultivating Awe And Playfulness

  67. 02:59and it brings about so many positive
  68. 03:02things. I think people should first
  69. 03:06develop discipline
  70. 03:08and use motivation and also research
  71. 03:12playfulness which is a lot more tricky
  72. 03:15for people uh these days.
  73. 03:18It brings with it
  74. 03:20incredible benefits. The aesthetic
  75. 03:23intensities that are missing from our
  76. 03:25lives, awe,
  77. 03:29curiosity, this deep sense of curiosity.
  78. 03:31These things can allow us to totally
  79. 03:35transform the emotional schema which is
  80. 03:38stuck rigid.
  81. 03:40This model of ourselves that is often
  82. 03:44times
  83. 03:46rigidifies all the way to depression.
  84. 03:48The most tricky situation of all the
  85. 03:52total bankruptcy of that budget of those
  86. 03:57resources.
  87. 03:59So something like awe
  88. 04:02which happens also in psychedelics.
  89. 04:04Isn't this a huge part of the
  90. 04:06psychedelic thing? What about
  91. 04:09experiencing all regularly in a directed
  92. 04:13targeted and practiced way?
  93. 04:16It can be cold showers and hot shower an
  94. 04:21experience on the sensory level. It can
  95. 04:23be something that is more related to the
  96. 04:25environment like skygazing.
  97. 04:27incredible practice. 10 minutes a day,
  98. 04:30your eyes cannot grab onto things. So,
  99. 04:33and it can be and very important
  100. 04:36conceptual
  101. 04:38or reading poetry or certain types of
  102. 04:44stories or literature touches that. So,
  103. 04:47all of this comes along with
  104. 04:49playfulness, our interaction with
  105. 04:52things. I treat this as a playful thing.
  106. 04:55Mhm.
  107. 04:56So if I think about it, it's almost
  108. 04:58always present because it allows me not
  109. 05:01to rigidify myself in front of the
  110. 05:04challenge. I'm working with athletes or
  111. 05:06work in cinema or do some project or
  112. 05:09work with a government body or or a
  113. 05:11military organization. I bring
  114. 05:13playfulness.
  115. 05:15Playfulness allows me to go much
  116. 05:17further, much deeper. My discipline
  117. 05:22wouldn't get me there.
  118. 05:24[clears throat]
  119. 05:25It got me certain places. Who got there
  120. 05:28to that place? I discovered that it
  121. 05:30wasn't me because I use discipline. So,
  122. 05:33it's often leaving you kind of out the
  123. 05:36totality of you.
  124. 05:38I am very very intrigued by this play
  125. 05:41versus discipline uh thing. So many
  126. 05:45years spent I wouldn't say punching the
  127. 05:47clock but you know there just things you
  128. 05:49have to do because experiments have to
  129. 05:51be done in this time in this way. one
  130. 05:53can develop a a real sense of an ability
  131. 05:56to push through and to do things and
  132. 05:58beautiful stuff can come out of what I
  133. 06:00call [snorts] chop wood carry water.
  134. 06:01It's just like phase is like okay we're
  135. 06:03just going to chop wood carry water. But
  136. 06:06this play thing is really powerful. I
  137. 06:08had this experience when I lived in San
  138. 06:11Diego. My lab started there and I I used
  139. 06:14to commute really far to work because I
  140. 06:16my home was um in an area that I really
  141. 06:20liked and that I could afford far from
  142. 06:22campus and the traffic was just brutal.
  143. 06:25Anyone that's ever driven in San Diego,
  144. 06:26these big wide eight-lane freeways and
  145. 06:28and I like listening to music, so I
  146. 06:30would drive and I remember one morning
  147. 06:32just being so frustrated with the drive
  148. 06:34even though traffic was moving. And I've

  149. Finding Play In Daily Life

  150. 06:37only had this experience once and I just
  151. 06:38decided I'm gonna [clears throat] just
  152. 06:40slalom the car to work. And I wasn't
  153. 06:44speeding. I'm like slaloming the car.
  154. 06:46I'm listening to music and I'm like this
  155. 06:49is the way to go to work. I can remember
  156. 06:51this one commute is a real standout
  157. 06:54experience in my life of like and I
  158. 06:56thought why don't I do this all the
  159. 06:58time?
  160. 06:58The old frog crosses the street video
  161. 07:00game.
  162. 07:01Right. Exactly. So, I'm just, you know,
  163. 07:04and I get to work and I do thing and and
  164. 07:06this was one instance. I don't think
  165. 07:07I've ever done it again. And I like to
  166. 07:09drive, but I never deliberately turn on
  167. 07:12like I'm going to take an ordinary
  168. 07:14experience that I do every single day
  169. 07:16that usually is kind of like loathe or
  170. 07:19mildly irritated at traffic. I'm just
  171. 07:22going to enjoy this experience. I think
  172. 07:25now that it would be so great to just be
  173. 07:27able to apply that to all these
  174. 07:28different little transitions. Oddly
  175. 07:30enough, I also have flashbulblike
  176. 07:32memories of being in Yusede where I've
  177. 07:35spent a lot of time. I've hiked a lot of
  178. 07:37the peaks in Yusede. I love it. I live
  179. 07:39lived and worked up there when I was in
  180. 07:40college and I just adore. You know what?
  181. 07:42I remember the great vistas and great
  182. 07:45peas that I had urinating in the woods.
  183. 07:49I like have like flashb memories of like
  184. 07:51and there's something there. I think
  185. 07:52it's just the calm and relaxation like
  186. 07:54oh like I'm just a creature peeing in
  187. 07:56the woods, you know. And uh as one does,
  188. 08:00you know, when you when you get into
  189. 08:01thinking like this is awesome. I have
  190. 08:03these like my life is great. It's so
  191. 08:06weird that these micro experiences that
  192. 08:08occupy like 10 to 15 seconds or a minute
  193. 08:11depending on how much water you drink,
  194. 08:13right? One commute could grab like real
  195. 08:17mental real estate in our brain. There's
  196. 08:19something there. And I know people are
  197. 08:20probably thinking like this is crazy,
  198. 08:21but I think most people would probably
  199. 08:23describe like kind of odd flashbulb
  200. 08:26memories that they have of things that
  201. 08:27are kind of trivial.

  202. Presence And Flashbulb Memories

  203. 08:29Do you notice that the the quality of
  204. 08:31those memories cuz you recall them and
  205. 08:35it they it has a flavor and a texture
  206. 08:37and a resolution which is different than
  207. 08:40other things which sometimes are should
  208. 08:43have been a lot more detailed. And it
  209. 08:46comes and goes, but we can become a lot
  210. 08:49more deliberate about it. And it
  211. 08:52represents a certain presence
  212. 08:54in that specific scenario of a
  213. 08:58heightened it's a heightened presence
  214. 09:01thing. Why? Those are questions. But
  215. 09:04playfulness opens the door for that.
  216. 09:06Some of my best seats, my best
  217. 09:09meditations were using a playful
  218. 09:11approach.
  219. 09:13Similarly to how you navigate the
  220. 09:15traffic,
  221. 09:16you can use it right in your book.
  222. 09:18I tried that. It was very diff I will

  223. Applying Play To Work

  224. 09:21tell you it's very difficult because
  225. 09:22there's aspects of the book that are
  226. 09:24very technical. There are aspects that I
  227. 09:26really want to get communicate things in
  228. 09:28a certain way. I definitely tried to
  229. 09:30relax myself. Um Cal Newport who's a
  230. 09:33sort of a guy who's a big proponent of
  231. 09:35of deep work uh staying away from
  232. 09:38technology to you know writing by hand,
  233. 09:40typewriter, this kind of thing. He said
  234. 09:42uh and I tried this. He said to approach
  235. 09:44work with um kind of a languid
  236. 09:47intentionality kind of relaxed but with
  237. 09:49a direction. I tried it. I have to
  238. 09:52scruff myself and bring myself to it.
  239. 09:54Even though I want to do it and I just
  240. 09:56like have to like like I imagine I'm
  241. 09:58like doing this
  242. 09:58but that deep belief
  243. 10:00Yeah.
  244. 10:00is already a self-fulfilling prophecy
  245. 10:03cuz you perceive yourself as that
  246. 10:05person. This is the way for you to do
  247. 10:08things.
  248. 10:09Mhm. and I'm similar but I've glimpsed
  249. 10:12something else.
  250. 10:14Yes, I I also I'm the disciplinary
  251. 10:17person. I'm a person of great work ethic
  252. 10:19and
  253. 10:21this is how I came about. But then I
  254. 10:24discovered it doesn't matter because
  255. 10:28how you write that book using that
  256. 10:31approach it leaks into your words
  257. 10:34and it's a different way of doing
  258. 10:37things. you're not going to write
  259. 10:40doniote in this way. [sighs] So I
  260. 10:44appreciate that and I also want to say

  261. Discipline As A Scaffolding

  262. 10:47come back to that thing this scaffolding
  263. 10:50the the fact that we have used
  264. 10:52discipline for such a long time is very
  265. 10:56positive. We need that first thing is to
  266. 10:59get things done. I'm the practice
  267. 11:01person. I'm the met person. You do it or

  268. The Handstand Metaphor

  269. 11:04you talk about it. So discipline is very
  270. 11:07important but it's similar to the wall
  271. 11:10in learning to do a handstand. If you
  272. 11:13use the wall one way where you're all
  273. 11:16the time pushing yourself off of the
  274. 11:17wall, try to catch your handstand, you
  275. 11:20become reliant on the wall. Notice what
  276. 11:23I said. You push yourself off of the
  277. 11:25wall. But there is a different approach.
  278. 11:28We can use the wall but pull off of it.
  279. 11:32Not quite push oursel off of it, but
  280. 11:34pull off of it, which comes from the
  281. 11:36other end, from our hands, from the
  282. 11:38connection to the ground. that does not
  283. 11:41necessitate a wall. So I can pull myself
  284. 11:44when I feel myself falling forward later
  285. 11:46on. This is the correct way to use
  286. 11:50discipline. You should use it as a
  287. 11:52scaffolding as a way to get things going
  288. 11:55like write that book. But inside the
  289. 11:57process, you must make sure you don't
  290. 11:59lean hard into it. You don't leave
  291. 12:02everything for it to dictate. And you
  292. 12:05bring some playfulness, some relaxation,
  293. 12:09some deep choice. I want to do this.