Do Animals Have Real Emotions? | Dr. Ralph Adolphs & Dr. Andrew Huberman
Dr. Ralph Adolphs and Dr. Andrew Huberman discuss the concept of functional emotions in animals and AI, highlighting why separating emotional processes from ...
Watch on YouTube →Transcript
Do Animals Have Emotions?
- 00:00It is striking to me that maybe 30 years or ago or so there was discussion about whether animals have emotions based on
- 00:07these criteria priority veilance scalability and persistence. Is it generally agreed upon that animals have emotions? I believe they do because I
- 00:15love my dog and other animals and I want to believe that but as scientists if we step back do they meet the criteria for emotions that you're setting up here for us?
- 00:23Absolutely. Yes. So if you have those criteria, those functional criteria and you would add one or two others, many
- 00:30states in animals and certainly the states that we would ordinarily interpret as emotions in our pets, in
- 00:37our dogs, cats. By the way, I loved your dog in the in the waiting room there.
- 00:42They would meet those criteria and they would have functional emotions. Uh we should talk more about this is also the the claim now from anthropic that large
- 00:51language models have functional emotions as well. So wild. We have to return to that because I think it it kind of boggles the mind. You know, how could a machine have emotions? But
Machine Emotions & Conscious Experience
- 01:00well, but again, these are functionally defined emotions and there's I think there's no problem assigning to AI to some extent and certainly to many animals uh those functional emotions.
- 01:11Where it gets complicated is that in us and also by assumption in animals I have no doubt they also have conscious
- 01:19experiences of emotions and most people take the conscious experience of the emotion as the ground truth for the
- 01:28emotion. Emotions without conscious experiences of emotions sound like an oxymoron. It's like you can't have that.
- 01:34They the conscious experience is the emotion which is what William James said which is what Joel Leoo says. And I think it's implicitly there across
- 01:42essentially every psychological theory is the assumption that emotions really are types of conscious experiences which I think is the intuition that if I ask
- 01:51you how do you know what's the ground truth right how do you know you're having an emotion you would say because it's a certain type of conscious
- 01:59experience because of how it feels. And if I asked you more specifically how do you know it's sadness versus anger versus fear you would say because of how
- 02:07they feel. They feel different. And so we take the conscious experience, our own introspective access to the conscious experience as the ground
Studying Consciousness
- 02:16truth. That has a lot of problems associated with it. Deep philosophical problems. But just practically it has
- 02:23two big problems that I think science should avoid. One is it gets really problematic to know whether or not animals have emotions because we don't
- 02:31know how to test whether or not they have conscious experiences. I have no doubt that they do. It's just that there's no scientific way to test
- 02:39currently. So we should have different criteria. And the other question is if you tie emotion to the the conscious experience of emotion, that is you
- 02:47equate you conflate emotions with feelings. Well then you're not studying emotions, you're studying consciousness.
- 02:55We spoke about Kristoff Kau earlier.
- 02:57Great respect for people that are studying consciousness, but I don't want to study consciousness. That's too hard.
- 03:03And there's lots and lots of debates and disagreements. So if we can avoid that and study emotions in the absence of
Studying Emotion
- 03:10needing to study conscious experiences of emotions, we can move forward with the science which is what every other discipline does. So if you're a vision
- 03:19researcher, right? So you study vision, you study consciousness. No, you don't you don't need to. I mean you can but there's a huge amount of work that
- 03:27people do studying vision and how that works in the brain studying memory you know any other cognitive process without
- 03:36needing to study conscious experiences they're typically accompanied in humans and if you if you talk to the lay person on the street and you say I'm a vision
- 03:44researcher they take you to be studying the conscious experience of seeing perhaps or if you say I'm a memory researcher they take you to be studying
- 03:52the conscious experience of recollection But scientifically most people working in those fields don't study consciousness and it's perfectly valid
- 03:59to study vision and memory you know in in in horseshoe crabs or elesia where nobody has any claims about consciousness. We should do the same
- 04:08thing with emotion and then we can have an integrated science across species that can move forward without needing to tackle the difficult problem of
- 04:16consciousness. Again, yes, for sure we and other animals have conscious experiences of emotions and that's very
- 04:24important. [clears throat] But we also have conscious experiences of seeing and memory. As a scientific discipline, we should separate the conscious experience
- 04:31from the process from the emotion and that's the way we make progress. That's the one of the main arguments that David and I had in our book and that I reiterate in the forthcoming book.
- 04:46[music]