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Understand Pediatric Vaccine Safety & Timing | Dr. Max Krummel & Dr. Andrew Huberman

Huberman Lab Clips10:12Added Aug 31, 2026

Dr. Matthew (Max) Krummel and Dr. Andrew Huberman discuss vaccine timing, spacing schedules, and public hesitancy, focusing on how clinical protocols are dev...

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  1. Cancer Vaccines Versus Childhood Vaccines

  2. 00:00one group that's completely no matter
  3. 00:01whether they're hesitant against
  4. 00:02childhood vaccines and the number of
  5. 00:04them we get and the the fact that the
  6. 00:06government makes you take them and these
  7. 00:07sort of things if those people have
  8. 00:09cancer, they're very interested in
  9. 00:11vaccines because it's a there there's
  10. 00:13really good data that you can promote
  11. 00:15more immune cells against the um tumor
  12. 00:17by making a vaccine that consists of
  13. 00:21some of the proteins and peptides that
  14. 00:23are unique to the tumor and not
  15. 00:25different from you. and you introduce
  16. 00:27those as if you would introduce a virus
  17. 00:28or anything in a in a childhood vaccine
  18. 00:30on similar concept um just different
  19. 00:34peptides. their peptides from the tumor
  20. 00:36and and in those situations it's
  21. 00:38context, right? So if if you and I had
  22. 00:40cancer and we don't have the the
  23. 00:41conventional cures are not going to work
  24. 00:43on us. We know there we know statistics
  25. 00:45really well. Chemo is not very good for
  26. 00:47a lot of you know cancers and that's the
  27. 00:49only thing we got. But if you have
  28. 00:50access to something that's relatively
  29. 00:52new and particularly vaccines despite
  30. 00:54what you know some people worry about
  31. 00:55they're pretty safe. Um, and so the the
  32. 00:58certain die versus try out a vaccine
  33. 01:00drives a lot of people to be interested

  34. Questioning Vaccine Schedules & Timing

  35. 01:02in vaccines. And I would say yeah in
  36. 01:04that case it's a really you know you can
  37. 01:06see where people's their their question
  38. 01:08about whether they're going to try
  39. 01:09something or not is very context
  40. 01:10dependent
  41. 01:11very I think uh I don't want to go too
  42. 01:13deep into the vaccine debate and I don't
  43. 01:15want to be a spokesperson for either
  44. 01:16side because that's not my role today
  45. 01:18but
  46. 01:19I think that the um the what you refer
  47. 01:22to as vaccine hesitancy actually comes
  48. 01:24back to an earlier issue that maybe
  49. 01:26you'd be willing to comment on.
  50. 01:28Sure. um which is I think there are a
  51. 01:30very large number of people for whom
  52. 01:32they are neither antivaccine
  53. 01:34nor super pro but they are um they're
  54. 01:38asking about timing and combinations.
  55. 01:40Agreed.
  56. 01:41They're saying okay listen and we had
  57. 01:42Jay Bachari on here and I've had several
  58. 01:45others who've said maybe there should be
  59. 01:47an investigation of the spacing of these
  60. 01:50things how many um how critical it is to
  61. 01:53do at a given age you know um
  62. 01:55and on and on. We could pick any vaccine
  63. 01:56for that reason. And as an immunologist,
  64. 02:00do any of those questions make sense to
  65. 02:02ask? I mean, I could see how, you know,
  66. 02:04bombarding the immune the young immune
  67. 02:06system with a lot of vaccines is a very
  68. 02:09different thing than spacing out the uh
  69. 02:11delivery of those vaccines.
  70. 02:13I'm not saying don't give them all. I'm
  71. 02:14saying
  72. 02:16over what time window does one give
  73. 02:17them? Yeah.
  74. 02:18I think a lot of people, many more
  75. 02:20people are asking that question. Yeah.
  76. 02:21It's just a quieter murmur
  77. 02:24than our um saying, "Listen, we don't
  78. 02:26want to take any of these things."
  79. 02:28Yeah.
  80. 02:28We don't want our kids to take any of
  81. 02:29these.
  82. 02:29Well, I present too. And I I think
  83. 02:31there's some fair aspect to which most
  84. 02:33of these vaccines were not studied in
  85. 02:35the context when they were studied of of
  86. 02:38what it does, you know, in in in
  87. 02:40combination and in these sorts of
  88. 02:42timings. The fact is that, you know, the
  89. 02:44the evidence that there's that there's
  90. 02:47bad things happening doesn't look to me,
  91. 02:49you know, tremendously strong. It's
  92. 02:51almost like anecdotal sort of
  93. 02:52information. So,
  94. 02:54unless it's your kid,
  95. 02:55unless it's your kid, in which case
  96. 02:56you're going to look for an explanation.
  97. 02:58So, I I don't know.
  98. 02:59Just being fair, as long as we're
  99. 03:00admitting psychology as a factor.

  100. How Medical Protocols Are Designed

  101. 03:02Yeah.
  102. 03:02Yeah.
  103. 03:02Yeah.
  104. 03:03So, there there's fairness on both sides
  105. 03:06of that discussion. And I think I think
  106. 03:08that almost certainly where we are now,
  107. 03:10there's probably ways to put together
  108. 03:12vaccines and certainly more convenient
  109. 03:14ways. It's I I as a parent I I actually
  110. 03:17had something very similar where we
  111. 03:18delayed you know my first daughter's one
  112. 03:20of her vaccines partly because I know
  113. 03:22that that as a you know like there's a
  114. 03:25certain element to which when we design
  115. 03:26a protocol like the the protocol for
  116. 03:28imotherapy of cancer for patients was
  117. 03:30was actually based a little bit on the
  118. 03:32mouse work a lot on the mouse work that
  119. 03:34I did you can imagine that mice and
  120. 03:35humans are quite different but that is
  121. 03:37the protocol and protocol is protocol
  122. 03:39and that's how it's done in medicine and
  123. 03:40that's because you have a fairly good
  124. 03:42sense of the safety of it because of
  125. 03:43statistics
  126. 03:44But that isn't to say that it's the only
  127. 03:46protocol that would work. And I think
  128. 03:48you're getting at this concept of like
  129. 03:49could there be at least a more
  130. 03:50convenient one and also or safest or
  131. 03:53even one that is less disruptive to the
  132. 03:55lives of the children and the parents. I
  133. 03:56we we delayed one of our kids vaccines,
  134. 03:59you know, by just a month or something
  135. 04:00because uh she had not been feeling well
  136. 04:03just straight up. And it is true, you
  137. 04:05know, and I'd say that a couple of the
  138. 04:06vaccines that have come out that I've
  139. 04:07had recently, the shingles one is a good
  140. 04:08example. I had that has knocked me
  141. 04:10completely out and it, you know, it's
  142. 04:12very very heavily advented. It's clear
  143. 04:13that it's you know it's having to um
  144. 04:16does it does it need to be you know I
  145. 04:18actually don't know I don't know what
  146. 04:19studies were done and and there's kind
  147. 04:21of an aspect of which I don't know that
  148. 04:23we're all um being shielded from the
  149. 04:26information but I don't know that we all
  150. 04:27know how to read the information about
  151. 04:28how these regimens were chosen
  152. 04:31um some of them are chosen by competing
  153. 04:33pharma pharma companies that each make
  154. 04:35their own you know materials and
  155. 04:38you know again I think there's a there's
  156. 04:39a lot in this question I don't know how

  157. Dogma In Science Communication

  158. 04:42much of it also represents
  159. 04:44the one problem of science that I could
  160. 04:46talk about is this um this issue that's
  161. 04:49a lot of science treat science as a kind
  162. 04:50of a papacy like we know the language we
  163. 04:53know the facts and and we probably don't
  164. 04:54have time to tell you why we think this
  165. 04:57and where where the holes are.
  166. 04:58Excuse me for interrupting but you know
  167. 05:01a huge
  168. 05:03basis of this podcast is to counter
  169. 05:05exactly that. I know.
  170. 05:06I mean, I know all these incredibly
  171. 05:07smart, incredibly well-meaning
  172. 05:10people who have lives of their own,
  173. 05:12health lives of their own, health
  174. 05:13challenges of their own, kids of their
  175. 05:15own,
  176. 05:16and on and on and no one was hearing
  177. 05:18from them.
  178. 05:19Yeah,
  179. 05:19it it was and as things get more
  180. 05:21politicized, there's less incentive to
  181. 05:24give nuance. I actually really
  182. 05:25appreciate you providing some nuance on
  183. 05:27the I mean it's clear where you stand on
  184. 05:29vaccines generally based on what you've
  185. 05:30said, but you're you're offering perhaps
  186. 05:33the opportunity for for better
  187. 05:35understanding and certainly delivery of
  188. 05:37the information.
  189. 05:38Yeah.
  190. 05:38Yeah. I mean it's it's a huge problem.
  191. 05:40Yeah. Well, I guess it's it's one of
  192. 05:42those ones that I can only speak about
  193. 05:43what I did, right, as a as a as a human
  194. 05:46when I had kids and I looked at the data
  195. 05:48and I have probably better capacity than
  196. 05:50some anyways to read it and look at risk
  197. 05:53versus harm, you know, the percentages
  198. 05:56of these things. I absolutely, you know,
  199. 05:58vaccinated kids and that was it seemed
  200. 06:00like it seems even now like a a
  201. 06:02reasonable no-brainer. But I just told
  202. 06:03you too that I I asked to go off
  203. 06:05protocol because at some point I know
  204. 06:08these protocols have a little bit of
  205. 06:09like again they were designed on a one
  206. 06:11study but it doesn't mean that it
  207. 06:12doesn't work if you wait another month.
  208. 06:14In fact if you do if you've done enough
  209. 06:15mouse experiments as I have you know
  210. 06:16that when you vaccinate on a slightly
  211. 06:18different schedule you can still end up
  212. 06:19with the same outcome you know that is
  213. 06:21protection you know with slightly
  214. 06:23different schedules. It's not that
  215. 06:25convenient for doctors and hospitals and
  216. 06:28and even sometimes for patients to get
  217. 06:30off on, you know, like weird schedule
  218. 06:31and then you forget a dose and then it
  219. 06:33isn't as effective, right? So there's
  220. 06:34there's efficacy that comes with, you
  221. 06:36know, trying to follow the protocol and
  222. 06:38because the protocol has [gasps] some
  223. 06:40convenience built into it that means
  224. 06:41you're going to do it. It's um it's like
  225. 06:43it's like brushing your teeth in the
  226. 06:44morning, you do it, the morning, the
  227. 06:45evening is affects when you do it and so
  228. 06:47you'll do it twice a day. So there's a
  229. 06:50lot in this. I mean, you know, there's a
  230. 06:52lot of politics, I think, involved in in
  231. 06:54vaccine 2 that relates to the question
  232. 06:55of like at what point can the government
  233. 06:57do tell you what to do, which is, you
  234. 07:00know, it's a it's a surrogate question
  235. 07:01to the vaccine one where a vaccine is,
  236. 07:04you know, if there's a harm, who gets to
  237. 07:06choose with the harm benefit and then
  238. 07:09resources are given out for like schools
  239. 07:10and you know, we know all these we know
  240. 07:12all these sort of nuances. From the
  241. 07:13science standpoint, I don't think you
  242. 07:15want to wipe out the baby with the bath
  243. 07:16water. I don't think you personally like
  244. 07:18I wouldn't not immunize my kids. Could
  245. 07:20there be additional studies about the
  246. 07:22combination of these into like fewer
  247. 07:24shots? I think so. I don't see why not.
  248. 07:26Here's where you get the financial res.
  249. 07:28What's the benefit to any pharma company
  250. 07:30of doing that?
  251. 07:31Well, I think this is again I I have to
  252. 07:33be careful that I don't place myself
  253. 07:35into an advocacy group that I'm not. I

  254. Understanding Anti Big Pharma Sentiments

  255. 07:37I'm I look at everything on a case- by
  256. 07:40case basis. I really try to do that. But
  257. 07:44the, you know, and I've tried to be in
  258. 07:47recent years more open to the to at
  259. 07:49least understanding what the anti- big
  260. 07:52pharma stance is really about.
  261. 07:54You know, it comes up a lot around
  262. 07:55SSRIs, but you talk to somebody with
  263. 07:58clinical grade OCD and they will tell
  264. 08:00you that SSRI saved their life.
  265. 08:02So you go, okay, well, you know, so we
  266. 08:04can say all we want about pharma. Are
  267. 08:06you talking about people getting in
  268. 08:06taking insulin or, you know, and till
  269. 08:09recently the GLPs were mostly available
  270. 08:11through pharma? Now they're sort of it's
  271. 08:13kind of the wild west. People are micro
  272. 08:15doing them from all sorts of
  273. 08:16compoundingies as their own issues and
  274. 08:18so on. But my sense is that the
  275. 08:21frustration around the kind of
  276. 08:23dictatorial like you're going to do this
  277. 08:25at this point because this or else like
  278. 08:28your persona nonrada that kind of like
  279. 08:31people not people being shunned
  280. 08:33in both directions in either direction
  281. 08:35rather. That's you know that that's
  282. 08:38really the source of the problem. There
  283. 08:39there really hasn't ever been a
  284. 08:40conversation quite like this.
  285. 08:42Yeah, I agree.
  286. 08:43At least not one I've seen publicly.
  287. 08:45Yeah, there not a lot of labs that are
  288. 08:46going to devote themselves to this.
  289. 08:48People will wage the argument that and I
  290. 08:51don't know if this is actually true, but
  291. 08:52that the pharma companies are protected
  292. 08:54against lawsuits about vaccine injuries.
  293. 08:56Yeah. I mean, I think that probably is

  294. Psychology Of Vaccine Injury Concerns

  295. 08:58frustrating to very frustrating, excuse
  296. 09:00me, to a parent whose kid seemed
  297. 09:03essentially fine, got a vaccine, and 3
  298. 09:05days later started exhibiting symptoms
  299. 09:07that then set them off on a course that
  300. 09:09was um really really tragic.
  301. 09:11Yeah.
  302. 09:12Um and those groups are the ones that
  303. 09:15have accumulated the most oomph out
  304. 09:18there.
  305. 09:18And if you think about the those
  306. 09:20parents, it's totally understandable.
  307. 09:22Yeah. why they would feel that way,
  308. 09:23whether or not the basis of their
  309. 09:25feelings is exactly right. I can't speak
  310. 09:27to, but you can understand if your kid
  311. 09:29is one way, walked out of the doctor's
  312. 09:31office is is another way. And you can't
  313. 09:33do anything about it. That's got to be
  314. 09:35mad. I mean, beyond maddening
  315. 09:37and and and the question is what could
  316. 09:39you have done differently? I think is in
  317. 09:41those situations, having been in them,
  318. 09:43not that exact situation where you said,
  319. 09:44"Oh, now it's done and now it can't go
  320. 09:46backward."
  321. 09:47And you did that to them. This is the
  322. 09:49thing that well this is the thing I
  323. 09:50think that is not often discussed is
  324. 09:52that the the parents made that choice on
  325. 09:54the basis of what they thought was the
  326. 09:56best. So that there's a certain um
  327. 09:59guilt/ anger. I mean there's a whole
  328. 10:01psychology to it that's completely
  329. 10:03understandable.
  330. 10:04Yeah. [music]
  331. 10:12[music]
Understand Pediatric Vaccine Safety & Timing | Dr. Max Krummel & Dr. Andrew Huberman — Transcriptly